Posts by Merry Magdalene

48

Weirdest Koran Qoutes = "Beat your Wife, Worship Adam, Men turned into apes

by Witness 007 in

adam- sura 1:1 "{allah} only you we worship.

" however, surah 2:25,26 allah tells the angels to worship adam since he can name all the animals.

one angel refused and became satan.??

Merry Magdalene

Greetings s_w, for me the question isn't so much did we need it to happen or not, but did it happen or not? You have found one answer, I have found another. And so it goes.

Let's not give up on each other that quickly, stilla. Did you find specific information in that reference to be incorrect, inaccurate or otherwise questionable? Do you know of a site that addresses these particular apologetics? If so, I would genuinely like to see it. But I guess I ought not to push you for what you don't want to give. I am still researching the matter and contemplating it so I am sure I will stumble upon at least one of the references you haven't given me. No worries.

Off to make supper now...

~Merry

59

Just talked to Witnesses at my door for Hour about Watchtower Child Abuse

by flipper in

it happened again like in july when i talked to an elder and his wife about child abuse, but this time i got a hold of rank and file members who fortunately i was able to play like a fiddle as they had no idea what they were up against here.

so brother middle age ex-hippie convert ( as he told me later ) and sister middle age hair in a bun offered me the awake on death or our view of death.

i graciously accepted gaining their trust saying yes, i had close loved ones who had died over the years but didn't know if i believed in a resurrection or hereafter.

Merry Magdalene

and what they said! I am terrible at speaking extemporaneously, especially on important issues. It takes me forever to get my thoughts together and then to express them vocally??? I trip all over my tongue. So thank goodness people like you exist!

~Merry

48

Weirdest Koran Qoutes = "Beat your Wife, Worship Adam, Men turned into apes

by Witness 007 in

adam- sura 1:1 "{allah} only you we worship.

" however, surah 2:25,26 allah tells the angels to worship adam since he can name all the animals.

one angel refused and became satan.??

Merry Magdalene

stillajwexelder: very revisonist of unpleasant facts for Islam - you belive what you want to

And you believe the facts of this matter are what? and why?

Hi Qcmbr.

I actually believe that the evidence of approval for wife-beating in Islam is completely out-weighed by the evidence against it. Unfortunately, there are too many men of greater influence than I have that disagree. With or without seeming religious approval, those who are so inclined will do it, and those who are not won't IMO. But those who do it need to face legal consequences, and I think those who teach that it's ok should have to too. Abusing is wrong and encouraging or approving abuse is wrong.

Even in the wondrous West this issue was for too long considered just a private family matter, not a legal one. If a man beat his wife, his kids or his dog no one was supposed to interfere.When my JW mom first moved to the area in which I was raised, she was shocked to find more than one woman on more than one occasion, in one town in particular, answer the door with black eyes and other visible bruising. Thinking at first that some dreadful accident had occurred, she asked the first one what happened, and the answer was a tired and rather nonchalant, "Oh, my husband came home drunk last night and..." Same basic answer every time.

And polygamy... It appears to me that although allowed (some say for the protection and benefit of women who outnumber men) it is not actively encouraged and only a small minority of Muslims have more than one wife. Thanks for the chuckle, Q.

~Merry

48

Weirdest Koran Qoutes = "Beat your Wife, Worship Adam, Men turned into apes

by Witness 007 in

adam- sura 1:1 "{allah} only you we worship.

" however, surah 2:25,26 allah tells the angels to worship adam since he can name all the animals.

one angel refused and became satan.??

Merry Magdalene

Merry do you at least agree your founder Mohammed was a pedophile?

Good question. Important issue.

Short answer: No, I don't.

Long answer: http://www.muslim.org/islam/aisha-age.htm

Coincidentally that is the chapter I am now working on for my intended book.

~Merry

48

Weirdest Koran Qoutes = "Beat your Wife, Worship Adam, Men turned into apes

by Witness 007 in

adam- sura 1:1 "{allah} only you we worship.

" however, surah 2:25,26 allah tells the angels to worship adam since he can name all the animals.

one angel refused and became satan.??

Merry Magdalene

Well, I've been busy writing that book, but had to check back in.

Mary, I think you are making a mistake when you liken my contrasting the teachings of Islam with what some Muslims say and do to contrasting the teachings of the WTS with what some JWs say and do. IMO a more fair and accurate comparison would be to liken it to contrasting the teachings of Christianity and what some Christians (JWs for instance) say and do. There is no central authority structure for all of Islam, just like neither the Pope nor the governing body of the WTS can speak for all Christianity and Christians nor hold sway over them.

Some will lay blame for the harmful aspects of JW policy and practice on their not being "true Christians" and not following a correct translation and understanding of the Bible. That would seem to be comparable with my defense of Islam and the Qur'an. Others will lay the blame more generally on their attempting to be Christians and follow the Bible in any way, shape or form whatever because they consider both to be crap. I think that would be comparable to how you and many others here feel about Islam and the Qur'an.

I do not condone the punishment of a girl for her own rape, nor the killing of civilians for political purposes, nor the murder of a girl for not wearing hijab and I have very good, solid reasons for believing that Islam as found in the Qur'an and Hadith does not condone it either. Maybe some day you will be able to consider my reasons without the considerable (but understandable) bias which I feel is now blinding you. Your understanding of the way Islam is seen and practiced is very one-sided and seems to be informed only by negative press and the negative personal experience of someone you know. Those are valid reports and experiences but do not take into account the many other experiences and views of Muslims. They just happen to get the most attention because they rightly cause the greatest concern.

Can Islam and the Qur'an be fairly judged on the basis of the actions of any or even all Muslims, anti-Islamic criticisms, and popular opinion? Can anything be properly evaluated this way? Is it not fairer and of more benefit to judge the actions of Muslims, their critics and popular opinion based on a genuine understanding of the Qur'an, the Hadith, pre-Islamic cultures, and the history of conflict between the East and the West. You can only evaluate a tree by its fruit if you know for sure which tree the fruit came from.

I am not the only one who feels and thinks this way about Islam and, fortunately, I am not the only one working to further educate both Muslims and non-Muslims in this regard. Like you, I feel it is of vital importance to expose lies, especially those that protect the powerful and oppress the weak. Wish me luck, eh?

My best wishes to you and my appreciation for your considerable passion which seems to me to be rooted in genuine compassion and unwavering personal integrity. I have long appreciated your presence on this board

Dansk, it's true that not all Muslims segregate men and women, as in the case of Sufis, and there are various degrees of seperation apart from that. There is a very interesting documentary called Me and the Mosque which I highly recommend. Here is a review of it, part of which I will quote:

Me and the Mosque covers itself with scholarly analysis for its hadith-hungry Muslim audience. The likes of ‘Umar Faruq Abd-Allah, ‘Abdullah Adhami and Tariq al- Suwaidan all make appearances to place the barrier in context. The conclusion they drive ho me is that barriers were not found in the Prophet Muhammad’s Mosque , and therefore are not a legitimate tradition. Although they deliver the factual goods seriously, they are wisely played against so me very amusing animation, which bring to life Islamic history and hadith in unexpectedly funny ways. http://www.islamicamagazine.com/issue-15/breaking-down-barriers-with-me-and-the-mosque.html

(Sorry about the unintentional highlighting. A result of my search parameters or something.)

~Merry

48

Weirdest Koran Qoutes = "Beat your Wife, Worship Adam, Men turned into apes

by Witness 007 in

adam- sura 1:1 "{allah} only you we worship.

" however, surah 2:25,26 allah tells the angels to worship adam since he can name all the animals.

one angel refused and became satan.??

Merry Magdalene

I am glad you agree there is error in your religion Merry.

That's not quite what I said, stilla, and not what I meant either.Nice try though

~Merry

48

Weirdest Koran Qoutes = "Beat your Wife, Worship Adam, Men turned into apes

by Witness 007 in

adam- sura 1:1 "{allah} only you we worship.

" however, surah 2:25,26 allah tells the angels to worship adam since he can name all the animals.

one angel refused and became satan.??

Merry Magdalene

Ok....You know what this means don't you? I'm going to have to write a book...and that's going to take a while...and when I'm done I won't be able to post it here because no one likes to read that long a post (at least I don't), so I will have to post a link and anyone interested in my answers to these questions/issues/challenges (and so much more!) will be able to click on the link and everyone else can just ignore it.

But I have to say something to Mary before I go, cuz she called "bullshit" and I can't let that slide. Nope nope nope.

Again: I was offering my personal understanding of Islam and trying, again, to make a distinction between what I believe Islam teaches according to my personal research (comparing and contrasting what fits and works together against what doesn't) and what some have twisted it to appear to mean.

*ISLAM DOES NOT CONDONE THE EVIL THAT ALL TOO MANY MUSLIMS DO CONDONE*
and you cannot make me say it does. And why would you want to? Do you want it to be evil? Do you want me to be? I understand if you are impatient for change, I am too, but the more you blindly attack from without, the more difficult you make it for those of us within.

I have said, and most of the Muslims I "know" (from Turkey, Syria, Egypt, Palestine and Pakistan) have said, that no Muslim countries today are genuinely Islamic and they are not implementing true shari'ah. THE EVIL THAT THEY DO IS NOT ISLAM. You and they can call it that all day and all night long and I will not believe you.

You can slander the Prophet (pbuh) and say that you know the terrible truth about him and that what I believe is just a lovely lie...but why? Why do you prefer to believe and perpetuate the bad while I believe and try to perpetuate the good? Do you think you are helping make things better?

My "friends", who also love Islam and try to learn and to live it to the best of their abilities, are faced with threats from all sides, wherever they live. But they know the difference between what Islam is and what some Muslims believe and do and they do not abandon it because of the actions and opinions of others, including those of their governments. Like me, they just continue trying to do the best they can with what they've got, gently, persistently trying to correct what is in error. And sometimes we argue and debate and disagree, but we do it with love and respect and a desire to get to the truth of the matter.

As to Muslim men--good grief! Based on my personal experiences in matters of non-Muslim love and marriage and family, I could make similar statements about ALL men...but I won't because I still hope it's not true

Thanks for your kind comment, nvr

Going out now to play in the snow with my daughter...

~Merry

48

Weirdest Koran Qoutes = "Beat your Wife, Worship Adam, Men turned into apes

by Witness 007 in

adam- sura 1:1 "{allah} only you we worship.

" however, surah 2:25,26 allah tells the angels to worship adam since he can name all the animals.

one angel refused and became satan.??

Merry Magdalene

I am quite frustrated, as I do not know how to say what I am trying to say any more clearly than I already have.

I feel that people are still unable or unwilling to distinguish between--

(1) what my own studies, contemplations and experiences have shown me that Islam really is and teaches (good)

and

(2) what those who hate it and want to destroy it, as well as those who twist and abuse it for their own ends and those who are just plain confused or misled, say that it is and teaches (bad).

Sounds arrogant, I know. Miss Junior Muslimah know-it-all.But the Islam I know and love is not what most of you here think and say Islam is. I wish to correct these misconceptions. I hate distortions and untruths.

But please do not think I began my inquiries into Islam with any desire to make it something other than what it is (nor do I want to or need to now). It was not my religion and I had no reason to go out of my way to defend it. I just wanted to know the truth about it and, most fortunately, did not have any strong preconceived notions that Islam was either good or bad. I was not that familiar with it and did not imagine that what little I had heard about it was either the whole truth or complete falsehood.

A chat-friend in Turkey encouraged me to read the Qur'an. I thought, "Sure, ok. I've always had an interest in world religions and I don't remember ever trying to read it before. I'll have a go at it one of these days." I found some translations on-line, and started to read it but got distracted and didn't get very far.

Later, after he asked me again if I had read it, I tried again and this time read it all the way through. I could barely pull myself away from it. But I also found myself noticing items about Islam and Muslims more and more in the news and online, and none of it good.

So lots of questions sprang up! I would ask him about it, he would answer as best his English would allow and then I would go Googling. I dug and I dug: pro-Islam info, anti-Islam info, converts, apostates, scholars, anyone with an opinion, Qur'an, Hadith, the challenges of translating Arabic to English. I searched, I studied, I sifted, I sorted, I pondered.

I found ridiculously unsatisfactory apologetics (to my mind), I found some that were quite convincing, I found horrible outright lies, I found questionable information, I found sound information (all this to my mind, of course, my mind being all that I have with which to question, compare and decide), and beyond all that, I found myself simply accepting and believing the Qur'an on what I felt were its own merits.

I hope to read and understand the Qur'an in Arabic someday, and am working towards that. Until then, I will continue reading and researching English translations (which seem woefully inadequate and yet, somehow, still managed to"speak" to me) and I am currently reading it for the 5th time. I am not afraid to continue questioning and learning, but I see a huge difference between what Islam is and what too many Muslims and non-Muslims have made of it (what a horror show!), and that difference is what I try to show people.

Sweetstuff, the Qur'an does not say most of the people in hell are women, that comes from a hadith. Don't have time to discuss it now. http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=7&ID=7547&CATE=3600 And it does not say women are inferior! although I am sure there is a good reason you think so. http://www.afghan-web.com/articles/womenrights.html

~Merry

48

Weirdest Koran Qoutes = "Beat your Wife, Worship Adam, Men turned into apes

by Witness 007 in

adam- sura 1:1 "{allah} only you we worship.

" however, surah 2:25,26 allah tells the angels to worship adam since he can name all the animals.

one angel refused and became satan.??

Merry Magdalene

what the naked text says

alt

Fine, there you go--the naked text of 4:34. No explanation needed, right?

~Merry

48

Weirdest Koran Qoutes = "Beat your Wife, Worship Adam, Men turned into apes

by Witness 007 in

adam- sura 1:1 "{allah} only you we worship.

" however, surah 2:25,26 allah tells the angels to worship adam since he can name all the animals.

one angel refused and became satan.??

Merry Magdalene

Beat your wife...

I think the link inkling posted covered what I would have tried to say myself. Basically, it is important to take into account the fullness of meaning of the Arabic language and the Qur'an and the Hadith as a whole, so as to understand the spirit as well as the letter of Islam, rather than taking a few words or verses of sometimes questionable interpretation and presenting them in a way that violates the spirit and letter of the entirety of Islam. Better education in this regard would help prevent both Muslims and non-Muslims from misunderstanding and misapplication.

Islam does not condone wife-beating, it encouarges men and women to love and respect each other, and to be gentle and kind in their dealings; it does not condone taking the law into your own hands and pronouncing and carrying out a death sentence or other legal punishment, it requires respect for the law and following legal procedure; it focuses always on personal obedience and personal responsibility to Allah, on fairness, on justice, on mercy and charity. Learning to control your temper and not act in anger is taught as being of great value and importance.

But you would not know this by looking at Muslims in the media or by the twisted versions of Shari'ah that are the law in many Muslim countries. You would only know this by looking for sources that have studied and understand Qur'an, Hadith, and Arabic, and those who endeavor to live it. They do exist! Anti-Islamic sites and the writings of Muslims who have a vested interested in maintaining unfair and wrongful power structures give a very distorted picture.

The Qur'an teaches love for women and respect for women's rights. Muhammad (pbuh) lived the Qur'an and provided the best example for us. After questioning and researching this matter, being a new convert, I feel confident that anything that is presented contrary to the excellence I have found in Islam is slander, and I will accept crap from no one, Muslim or non-Muslim or ex-Muslim. I wish with all my heart that all Muslims would learn and live their religion properly, including me! Again I say, correct education is of vital importance to this issue, as are a thriving economy and responsive political system.

I know there are many that will not embrace even the true teachings of Islam but, whether one accepts or rejects, I would hope that it would be on the basis of truth rather than falsehood. I do not know why people bother to lie about Islam when there are plenty of truths in it people are not going to like and will reject anyway.

Worship Adam...

Allah ta'ala did not tell the angels and jinn to worship Adam, He told them to bow. While worship may involve bowing, bowing does not necessarily constitute an act of worship but can be a sign of respect and humility. Unless you believe the Watchtower teaching that bowing in martial arts practice is an act of worship. Again, it's translation and context, determining what fits with the whole and what doesn't.

Men turned into apes...

...the Qur’an refers to those who have incurred the wrath of God as apes and swine, which is an old Arabic analogy for those who are lawless like apes and have succumbed to gluttony and sexual license like pigs.

Hi Kudra. Hope some of that helps. If not, feel free to ask me anything anytime. I may not read all the threads though, so pm me if I don't answer. Do have a look at that apologist link. And, oh dear, I've forgotten who started this thread, but hello I hope you continue researching and reading. If you think I can be of any assistance, please let me know.

If I have said anything wrong, may Allah ta'ala correct and forgive me.

~Merry